Section 1 - (0:00:00) Ravin’ Girls Introduction, Disclaimers, and Announcements
Section 2 - (0:06:00) Discussion of Factions in Call Down The Hawk
Section 3 - (0:14:24) Listener Questions and General Discussion
Section 4 - (0:20:04) Review of Past Dreamer Trilogy/Call Down The Hawk Predictions
Section 5 - (0:27:13) Overall Impressions and Continued Discussion
Section 6 - (0:57:54) Meaning of “Lindenmere” Mini Deep Dive
Section 7 - (1:03:02) Final Questions and Conclusions
Section 8 - (1:09:41) MVC, Maggiewatch, Supporter Shoutouts, and Outro
Section 9 - (1:14:54 ) Stingers

(Intro Music fading in, quote read over the top)

Shannon:
"Dreams are not the safest thing to build a life on."
Prologue, Page 1, Call Down The Hawk

Shannon: Hi I'm Shannon--

Nievita: --and I'm Nievita--

Shannon: --and we're--

Both: --the Ravin Girls!

Shannon: Welcome to our Raven Cycle podcast (both laughing) although today it's a Call Down The Hawk Podcast.

Nievita: Well, yeah, just for today though.

Shannon: Yep!

Nievita: Where we talk about oh my god so many dysfunctional teenagers and... the apocalypse?

Shannon: Always.

Nievita: (laughs) Yeah. Always the apocalypse.

Shannon: This is a special episode and we're covering the sampler from prologue to chapter 8 of Call Down The Haaaaaaawk!

Nievita: (laughing) Yeah, and no deep dive this time just lots of frantic yelling about all of the things.

Shannon: Un-hunh!

Nievita: Alrighty.

Shannon: All right. Disclaimers: this is an analysis podcast, we will probably still be discussing (N: the Raven Cycle) the Raven Cycle as a cycle, so we will be spoilerific and we are going to spoil the whole first eight chapters of--

Nievita: --right, mmmhmm--

Shannon: --Call Down The Hawk, so you probably want to have read the books before listening. We'll use pronunciations from the audio books and page numbers are from the sampler released by Scholastic. (laughs)

Nievita: Mmm-hmm, and a disclaimer from me: this podcast does still have a teen+ rating. There will be canon levels of all of those things that you absolutely love. (laughs)

Shannon: Whoo-hoo! All right...

Nievita: Like, you know, some cursing probably and some drinking and all of that

kind of good stuff. (Shannon laughing) So, some announcements because there has actually been a lot going on with us. It's been a while since we've gotten together and it's been a while since we've recorded an episode, so I wanted to give some podcast behind-the-scenes notes. Kind of a state of the podcast as it were. (both laugh) And so, the liste--

(Shannon begins humming a song, then laughs)

Nievita: Okay...

(CNN Theme Music Fanfare cuts in for a few seconds)

Nievita: (First few words over the music as it fades out) Yes, the listeners- you all have probably noticed that our schedule has been pretty erratic lately--

Shannon: --and we are sorry about that, we really are--  

Nievita, overlapping: --We are sorry, yeah-- (Shannon sighs)

Nievita: And that's because we normally have tried to keep several weeks of episodes ahead of the release dates with recordings, but unfortunately with the travel and personal issues of the winter and spring we just... we lost that buffer, and that's really affected our ability to be able to get an episode out--

Shannon: --Right, it really has.

Nievita: (chuckles) Yeah. And when we record and then have to immediately release... if anything at all happens we simply don't have the flexibility to bounce back (S: mmhmm ) Delays are delays at that point. So, we apologize, but... I also wanted to let folks know that there's been a lot of other pieces that have been moving behind the scenes. One of the things is that our podcast hosting provider has changed our fee structure. Now we're trying to decide how we're going to deal with that. So, as of now we have started a Patreon and a ko-fi (Nievita spells it out: K O - F I) to help defray some of our new costs. Basically, you can search for "ravingirls", all one word, just like we are on every-- (Shannon, overlapping: everything else--) --other social media, on Patreon and ko-fi. And, we'll be setting things up for folks... we don't quite have it (chuckles) it's literally just started. So, we'll be letting you guys know what's going on with those, but that's basically gonna go straight towards any new costs that we have with the podcast.

Shannon: Right.

Nievita: And another thing we'd like to do if we have enough people supporting us monthly is to launch an actual real grown-up people podcast website. (laughs, S: Whoohoo!) Yeah, so that's something that we're looking forward to. I've also been editing some of the first Ravin' Girls episodes to be more in line with our current quality-at least I think that I've gotten better at editing. (laughs)

Shannon: You definitely have. (N: Yeah. *laughs*) I'm very proud of you. 

Nievita: Thank you. And so those are going to be posted to YouTube actually as a static podcast episode. At the moment, right now we just have the teaser up, but there's still the hope that when the TV show begins that we'll be able to do episodic video... reviews?

Shannon: That would be fun. (N, overlapping: Possibly?) That would be so fun.

Nievita: Yeah, so any Patreon or ko-fi pledges beyond our normal monthly operating costs will go towards the equipment that we need to launch that when that happens. And, also with YouTube, if we get a hundred subscribers we can name our channel. (Both laugh.) Right now it's a string of gobbledygook, because that's how YouTube does it, so if you have a YouTube account please go and subscribe and we can be Ravin' Girls on YouTube as well. 

Shannon: Whoohoo! So exciting.

Nievita: Yeah. Another thing that's been happening behind the scenes is a listener offered to see what it would take to do some transcripts of our episodes, so that might be something that's coming in the future to help with accessibility for folks who may not be able to listen to podcasts or have a need for written text for any reason. (S: Mmmhmm.) And having a website would also help with that to have a place where we can host transcripts or Deep Dive notes, and do it in a way that's cleaner than Shannon having to post it to five or six different places across the internet

Shannon: Yeah. (laughs) 

Nievita: (laughs) Yeah, so. So that's what's been going on with us, and we realized that those aren't things we have shared with folks so much, but those are things that we are working on to (S: Mmhmm.) to not only make the experience better for all of you listeners that are currently with us, but also to expand the audience to other folks in the future--

Shannon: --Exactly.--

Nievita: --and we appreciate any and all help that you guys can give us to do that.

Shannon: Woohoo! We do have really great listeners.

Nievita: We do have really great listeners.

Shannon: All right. So, with all that out of the way let's get into the episode!

Nievita: Whooo! I wanted to quickly talk about the title, "Call Down The Hawk" (S: Okay) and that's not in our notes. (S: That's fine.) But,  the title "Call Down The Hawk" is from a W. B. Yeats poem... it's called "The Hawk". It was published in The Wild Swans at Coole in 1919 and the stanza that it's from is the first stanza:

‘CALL down the hawk from the air;
Let him be hooded or caged  
Till the yellow eye has grown mild,  
For larder and spit are bare,  
The old cook enraged,          
The scullion gone wild.’  

‘I will not be clapped in a hood,  
Nor a cage, nor alight upon wrist,  
Now I have learnt to be proud  
Hovering over the wood
In the broken mist  
Or tumbling cloud.’  

Nievita: And there's another stanza but I think the first two are the most important. (S: Mmmhmm.) We don't quite know how it's going to tie into the whole story yet, (S: Mmmhmm.) but I noticed that on page 31 of the sampler there was the line, “Ronan, the hawkish best friend, kept hooded and belled to prevent him tearing himself to shreds with his own talons.” 

Shannon: (makes a low noise of agreement)

Nievita: And, it's very much this difference between being wild and free and being caged, and what is actually better for a hawk.

Shannon: Right. That's really interesting. (N: Yeah.) Like, I'd never read that poem before, yeah.

Nievita: So, instead of talking about new characters, because they're just quite a lot--

Shannon: --So many.--

Nievita: --So many, but also we don't really know a ton about them--

Shannon: --Right.--

Nievita: --it's so frantic; the pace is very, very fast. So we thought we'd actually talk about some of the new factions that come in. (S: Mmhmm.) And the first one would be the Zed's... and why don't you go ahead and say what you have for that. 

Shannon: Okay, so: Zed's are dreamers. (N: Mmhmm.) There are people who can take things out of dreams into real life. (N: Mmhmm.) Just like Ronan and Kavinsky and Niall. (N: Mmhmm.) So basically one of the questions that I have which we'll get into later is like, is a fundamental difference between Zeds (N: Mmhmm.) and like, you know, the Greywaren or (N: Right.) or even between Zeds and Kavinsky. (N: Right.) Like, yeah, we don't know a whole lot about them.

Nievita: Are they their own category (S: Right.) of dreamer versus the thief versus the Greywaren. (S: Right.) Or are they all kind of... is everything a Zed? Like all dreamers (S: Uhunh.) a Zed and the Greywaren might be one of them.. or not. 

Shannon: Yeah, we'll get to that (N: Yeah.) in a little bit. (laughs) (N: Yeah.) It's such a fascinating thing, I was like... (laughs) (N: Yeah.)

Nievita: I found a couple of things... first off, "zed" noun, plural "zeds". The name of the Latin script letter Z, or something Z shaped. Colloquial, usually in the plural: sleep. I'm going to go get some zeds. (S: Hmmm.) Then the verb: "zed"--intransitive, informal. To sleep or nap. Compared to "zzzzzzzzzz" (S: Mmhmm.) You know, (S: Right!) "Catch some Z's." (S: Right, yeah.)  You can say, "I'm going to catch some Zeds", or I'm gonna--

Shannon: --right, 'cause like, we say "Z" and in Europe it's "zed". 

Nievita: Correct. (S: Mmhmm.) But I thought it was interesting that it's used as "sleep".

Shannon: Yeah, exactly.

Nievita: I also found an interesting reference to a British children's animated TV show from 1991, named “Captain Zed and the Zee Zone”. 

Shannon, laughing: Wow!

(“Captain Zed and the Zee Zone” Theme Music cuts in for a few seconds)

Announcer: "The children aaaarrre dreaming!" 
Captain Zed: "Captain Zed, on my way, over!" (character laughing)
Announcer: "Attention, Captain Zed."

Nievita: (First few words over the music as it fades out) The premise of the series is that the dreams of children are vulnerable to nightmares. Captain Zed is an agent of the Dream Patrol, part of the Dream Base, an organization that monitors children's dreams when they are asleep at night and makes sure that nightmares don't appear. Piloting a Dreamship, he is assisted with his co-pilot P.J. and pet cat Spring. 

Shannon, with shocked and pleased inhale: I wanna watch this show, oh my god. (laughs) 

Nievita, laughing: I downloaded the first episode. 

(Shannon does a shocked inhale, Nievita laughs. Shannon starts clapping.) 

Shannon: Cause, like, it's probably not a secret, but I love kids shows. (Both laugh.)

Nievita: You can find them on YouTube, they have not been released on DVD, I believe they're all video rips, so...

Shannon: Hunh, nice.

Nievita: The main villains are Snort and Mutter, (Shannon laughs) respectively the main villain and his henchman, are two shapeshifting monsters who want to take over the Dream Base and send nightmares to children's minds. 

Shannon: Woooow.

Nievita: So that's what I found to tie "Zed" into dreams and sleep. (Shannon, overlapping: Interesting, yeah.) And the moderators? (S: Mm-kay.) You want to go with that ?

Shannon: What we know so far is that they're basically dreamer hunters. (N: Mmhmm.) They seem to believe that dreamers aren't human and that one of them is going to bring about the end of the world through "unquenchable fire" (N: Mmmhmmmm.) and so they go out and they basically kill any dreamers that they find.

Nievita: Right. The thing that I found of note was on page 50 from Carmen's perspective, “...she knew that at some point, an inter-governmental entity had been quietly formed." Governmental entity. (Nievita laughs, Shannon: Mmhmm.) "Moderators came from all corners of the world.” It's such a boring name. (laughs) 

Shannon: Well, I mean (Nievita still laughing) I don't know, I think that kind of fits. 

Nievita: Okaaaay. I was like, "Moderators? Really? You couldn't come up with something better?" but, you know... (Shannon, overlapping: I...) yeah...

Shannon: It seems very fitting that like--

Nievita: --they're boring? (laughs)

Shannon: Yeah... banal. (Nievita, still laughing: Yeah.) Yeah. (N: Yeah.) Their banality, it's like this whole like... fight between humanity and magic. (N: Right.) Which we'll again talk about later. (laughs) 

Nievita: Right. Okay, visionaries? 

Shannon: Okay, visionaries are basically psychics. (N: Mmhmm.) They have visions that help the moderators track the Zeds, and they're the ones who have had these visions of the world ending in fire caused by dreamers. (N: Right.) And these visions seem to make them burn out really quickly? (N: Mmhmm.) But we don't get a very clear idea of what exactly that means... (N: Right.) whether they just stop having visions, whether they have like a breakdown, whether they just die..? 

Nievita: The word "fragmented" was used. (S: Oooooohhh.) So, my understanding or at least what I got from that was that their brains basically... (makes a clicking noise)

Shannon: Fry.

Nievita: Sssss... yeah, fry. (S: Hmm.) From my perspective it seems like for the most part there's just one at a time (S: Uhuh) like Vampire Slayers. (laughs) (S: Right.) Into every generation a Chosen is born. (Both laugh.) And the quote was, “This kid was only the most recent of them, the second Visionary the moderators had worked with since Farooq-Lane had started up with them.” (S: Mmhmm.) So it sounds like there's maybe one primary at a time (S: Right.) that burns out and then they have to find another one (S: Mmmmmm.) and we'll talk about that too. 

Nievita: And I don't think I put these in the main notes but... The Crying Club? (laughs)

Shannon: Yes, they're so cute (N: Yeah.) I love them a lot. (laughs)

Nievita: Yeah, The Crying Club is Adam's cohort, (S: Right.) his friends that he made at Harvard. 

Shannon: Yeah, basically like... the group that he has kind of like, taken under his wing, (N: Mmhmm.) gone out and found. (N: Yeah.) Yeah, and I love that he does that.

Nievita: Yeah, yeah. I also liked "Adam Parrish and The Crying Club" is almost the polar opposite of "Adam Parrish and his band of merry men". (Shannon laughs) But he got his band of merry men! (S: Uhuh) And, the DC fairy market... 

Shannon, excitedly: Yhaeeeeesss! So the DC Fairy Market is basically like the black market (N: Mmhmm.) in DC.

Nievita: Mmhmm. Well, it's a global underground rotating market. 

Shannon: Oh, okay.

Nievita: Yeah.

Shannon: Okay I was thinking, like--

Nievita: Well, it might be the one that's happening in DC at that time? (S: Okay.) But what she said was, it's a "rotating global underground black market that traded in all sorts of prestigious illegal goods and services." (Shannon, overlapping: Right, okay.) So it probably jumps from Paris to London to (S: Uhuh) Frankfurt to (S:Right.) you know... DC and...

Shannon: Mmhmm, and I love that it's called the fairy market. I probably would've called it the goblin market? (Nievita, laughing: Yeah, Yeah.) (Shannon laughs.) (N: Yeah.) But..! (N: Yeah.) (Shannon laughs again.) Anyway, you were saying?

Nievita: Maybe I'll just put out a prediction that... maybe there will actually be fairies involved (starts laughing) (S: Oh, I'm....) there might actually be Fae magic with the dreamers, who knoooows? (Both laugh.)

Shannon: I, yeah... I would buy that. (Nievita continues laughing.)

Nievita: All right, so those were the new factions that we meet in the book. Now on to questions!

Shannon: Whoohoo! We got a bunch!

Nievita: We did. (Shannon laughs.) 

Shannon: So, Jamie Lynn Lano or @jamieism on Twitter says @RavinGirls AaaaahH! I forgot to send this earlier, but what I most want to hear on the special episode is how you feel about the parts that were in the print sampler, but edited out for the digital copy or the copy-edited version. What other kinds of scenes do you think were edited out?(edited out for the entire book, I mean) 

Shannon: Also, do you think that something bad will happen to Decklo or Matthew, and what are your raw, honest feelings about it? Do you have any comments on the Lynch brothers fashion choices and smartphone habits? (Nievita chuckles in the background.)

Shannon: And what do you think the BBQ scene that we got a snippet of last year means for Ronan's chances of actually moving to Cambridge? I thought he might back out after the crabs, but if they're casually chatting about BBQs, then he might not have. And do you think the--the Adam point of view Maggie tweeted last year is his first point of view chapter in the book? Also, what is your expert analysis of the new information we got about dreamers? I don't think that Adam will be a visionary (was that the term? I forget), but a lot of people seem to think he will. He's obviously going to be the reason that Ronan destroys the world. Well, to me. But what are your thoughts? Fill us in on all the analysis about new characters. I only read those parts once since they weren't about Pynch, so I need someone else to tell me what all is going on lol. (Nievita starts laughing, Shannon joins.)

Nievita: I will say that we probably won't be able to get to all of this-- (laughs)

Shannon: Noooo, that's a lot of questions--

Nievita, laughing: Yeah. And, because it's not a beat by beat analysis, we're gonna skip over a lot of stuff... not to say that I didn't go through and highlight a lot of stuff as I was reading (S: Mmhmm.) because I printed out the PDF--and of course made notes about a lot of this stuff. But, because this is a special episode they tend to be way more informal and conversational and we're not during a beat by beat, like (S: Right.) line-by-line analysis. So, some of these things possibly we'll be able to get to like online, (S: Mmhmm.) but I have a feeling we won't be able to cover everything. (S: Right.) But I loved the glut of questions (Shannon laughs) all at once and figured we'd give them some airtime and maybe give other people (S: Right.) things to think about.

Shannon: 'cuz like, I was reading through that and as I was reading I was like, I didn't answer half of this. (Starts laughing.) 

Nievita, laughing: I know, I know. did you have anything that you did have on what Jamie had to say? 

Shannon: So like, I read the print version soon after it came out and then the updated one I read like just before I started doing my notes (N: Right.) and I didn't notice a lot of differences (N: Mmhmm.) and that to me says that whatever edits were made were a good call because there's not a lot of stuff that I missed. (N: Right) But I kind of felt like the final, more edited version moved at a slightly more streamlined and quick pace? 

Nievita: Right, I would agree. (S: Mmhmm.) I think the biggest difference--and we'll probably talk more about the differences between the two, 'cause I pulled out a few things later on in our questions--the biggest difference was the first version read like Maggie writing fanfiction of her own characters.

Shannon, laughing: It kind of did.

Nievita: You know, like, it was... it was very overblown and over the top and like bigger than life, and... and meandered I think in corners that it didn't necessarily need to meander into? And I think that the final version read like Maggie putting together a fast-paced thriller; which is what she's saying that Call Down The Hawk is (S: Mmhmm.) going to be more like.

Shannon: Right. So, some of the things that I did notice... the final version didn't have the big "County Kerry" on the first chapter, like... (N: Mmhmm.) which, that wasn't necessarily... necessary, like it (N: Mmhmm.) I admit that it didn't specifically serve a purpose, but it was a nice orienting touch, I think? (N: Mmhmm.) To have it there? 

Nievita: It still says it's Kerry (Shannon, overlapping: It says it in the) 

Shannon: It says it in the story--

Nievita: --Ooooohhhh-- but it wasn't like, a big (Nievita, overlapping: a headline)

Shannon: --like, like a big headline, like, where you're immediately, like... oh, we're in Ireland, awesome!

Nievita: Rights... rightright. (Shannon laughs) Gotcha. 

Shannon: Yeah, it was kind of exciting to like have that immediate, Oh, tangentially part of the story's... is in Ireland. (N: mm-hmm) And then a couple of the mentions of Carmen's boots (N: okay) were taken out. (N, laughing: okay) Aaaand, I know it's weird... but just enough of them were taken out, I feel like, to make the other ones less effective? If that makes sense? (chuckling) Like, the ones that are left in there kind of felt like... why are you talking about boots, when... (laughs)

Nievita: So the massive repetition of the element made it build on itself more and more (Shannon, overlapping: Yesss!) whereas only having it twice--

Shannon: --was just like... (N, overlapping: Was it like...) it-it felt a little lacking to me like... (N: Gotcha.) or just kind of like... not lacking just kind of like, okay, this is an odd... uh, maybe just because like I'd had those other repetitions before? (N: mm-hmm) It was more, felt more of like a theme or like a running... 

Nievita: Right.

Shannon: Yeah.

Nievita: Like a character trait versus like (S: Right.) she's got boots on. (laughs)

Shannon: Uhhunh. And... then the line, "They hadn't been told it might look like a holiday cottage but actually be a hostile planet." (Nievita laughs) Like, when they're going in to chase the Zeds (N: mm-hmm) and all the dream stuff is there, yeah. (N: M-kay.) And that line is cut in the newest version, and I thought that was a really odd line to cut. N, thoughful: Hmmm.) And I feel like this line gave, like... a better feel for how the moderators actually view dreamers, view Zeds? 

Nievita: Okay.

Shannon: And I feel like it was a good call back to the Barns. (N: Mmmmm.) Yeah, which... probably come to think of it would have tried to protect Ronan in the same way that this stuff in this house tries to protect this Dreamer. (N: mm-hmm, mm-hmm.) Mmmm, we know that Chainsaw would have, you know, like, so... (Nievita, overlapping: Right, yeah.) (Shannon laughs) But yeah. And that's about all I had for that.

Nievita: All right! Well, over the last two years (both laugh) of the podcast, we have several times discussed what we wanted for the Dreamer Trilogy. And so, we've made predictions in the past, and what I would like to do now is similar to what we've done in previous episodes: I'm going to read out what our predictions are, and I would like you to rate them confirmed, denied, or unknown. (Shannon chuckles: All right.) So we will just put some tally marks here. (Shannon laughs again.) 

Nievita: First, we had some feedback on Twitter... @parrishible said on Twitter: i have read the call down the hawk sample and i just wanna say: how the fuck were the @RavinGirls’ predictions/hopes so accurate?????? (Shannon laughs.) I WAS SO SHOOK. LIKE. HOW. the others were based in some kind of evidence but THIS. adam ain’t the only psychic that’s all i’m sayin (Shannon laughs again.) 

Nievita, laughing: And then: did yall ghostwrite this book because i can’t believe how spot on ur predictions are? (Shannon laughs loudly in the background.) also my most urgent concern right now is how adam parrish will get himself out of the whole “my boyfriend dreamed up a swarm of demon crabs that destroyed this dorm room please don’t suspend me” mess (Shannon starts laughing loudly again.)

Nievita: Okay.

Shannon: All right.

Nievita: So, to go all the way back to Episode 0: Shannon, these were your hopes or predictions (S: Okay!) for the Dreamer Trilogy: To have it make you love Ronan. (Shannon laughs) Confirmed? (Shannon laughs harder) Denied... (Shannon continues laughing) Unknown.

Shannon: I'm actually really happy about where Ronan is at the beginning of the series.

Nievita. Okay. Confirmed..? 

Shannon, with mock annoyance: Okay, confirmed... (Nievita begins laughing)

Nievita: Not to say that he might not go in terrible places (S: Right) 'cause we're all pretty sure he's gonna go to some pretty terrible places. (Shannon laughs.) Okay... to see more of Pynch and their relationship

Shannon, with conviction: Confirmed!

Nievita: Confirmed. And to see more Opal. 

Both, overlapping: Unknown.

Nievita: All right. My predictions or hopes: to find out if someone killed Niall's father, based on the quote from the Gray Man, "He asked me the same thing." 

Shannon: uh-huh. So that's unknown.

Nievita: Unknown. I would say that we have a very strong (slowly) Moderator-type scenario? (S: Mmm, right...) That if there are a bunch of people out there killing dreamers then quite possibly his father was whacked. Correct, unknown. (S: Mm-hmm.) That we'll get more Lynch family backstory. Unknown. (S: Mm-hmm.) That Ronan will go to Ireland? 

Both, together: Unknown--

Shannon: --but looking more--

Nievita: --possibly. (S: Mm-hmm.) The Gray Man comes back.

Shannon, then Nievita overlapping: Unknown.

Nievita: Ronan and black market stuff...

Shannon: Unknown, but looking vvvvery likely..!

Nievita, laughing: Looking very likely. Adam working with the old world leylines or priestesses, and going to Ireland?

Shannon: That's another unknown. (Nievita, overlapping: Unknown...)

Nievita: To tap into magic that is not Cabeswater. Unknown. (Shannon laughs.) To see if Cabeswater is remanifested. Yyyyess. 

Shannon: M-kay, so that's a confirm.

Nievita: That's a confirmed. But, connect it to old world magic or a greater magic? Unknown. (S: Mm-hmm.) And for Adam to have a motorcycle! 

Shannon, enthusiastically: Confirmed, confirmed, confirmed! (Nievita starts laughing, Shannon joins.)

Nievita, still laughing: We don't know if he'll actually ride it, (Shannon laughs) but it's (Nievita leans back to raise her voice) got his NAME on it! (Shannon laughs.) 

Nievita, in a dramatic screetchy voice: Oh my GGGODD! (Both laugh.)

Nievita: And then sexy girls? Confirmed.

Shannon, laughing: Yup. 

Nievita: Sexy cars? 

Both: Confirmed.

Nievita: Sexy explosions? Does the apocalypse--

Shannon, overlapping: --Yeah, I think that--

Nievita, overlapping: --count?

Shannon, overlapping: --counts. (Nievita laughs.)

Nievita: Sexy explosions? (Shannon laughs.) Okay.

Nievita: All right, but then we also had some predictions in the Opal episode, (S: Okay) so Shannon, your predictions were: the black haired blue-eyed woman will be an antagonist.

Shannon: Unknown.

Nievita: Unknown. That we will have Adam and Ronan dealing with Adam being in school or away.

Shannon: That's confirmed--

Nievita, overlapping: -confirmed. Seeing Ronan grow as a dreamer. 

Shannon: I'd say that's confirmed.

Nievita: I'd say it's confirmed. It's a little, you know, on the fence... but--

Shannon: --I mean it's like the first eight chapters, so--

Nievita, laughing: Yeah. (Shannon laughs) And character development for Opal.

Shannon: Uhhh... unknown.

Nievita: Unknown. Okay, and then some of my predictions: Gansey, Henry, and Blue won't appear on page much, if at all. Maybe in phone calls.

Shannon: That's kind of confirmed? 

Nievita: K... I... I mean it's kind of, but not? So..? So far yes, but--

Shannon: I'm gonna call it confirmed...

Nievita: Okay. And then the art forgery... that it will involve art forgery in (Shannon, overlapping, enthusiastic: Confiiiirmed!) some way (Nievita laughs) All right. And then we had the question of the Barns as the endgame, and you had said that the Barns was good for Ronan, that he needs the stability of the Barns to be connected to his home, his family, and abilities. The Barns is a safe place to dream, and that Adam wants to be away from Henrietta and the Barns would be settling down. 

Shannon: And that is literally exactly what they talk about. (laughs) 

Nievita: Yeah. From myself, the Barns as endgame: I said maybe at age 60, but the meta-narrative and setting scope creep means that the books can't happen at the Barns. Ronan will have to leave because that's how novels work, and the setting will be bigger for the Dreamer Trilogy. Neither Adam nor Ronan need to sacrifice their happiness to be together, (S: Mm-hmm) and that they imply to Opal that they won't always be around. And I had the question of, will Opal even be a part of the Dreamer Trilogy.

Shannon: Mm-hmm. So, I think we both get confirmed on both of those...

Nievita: I think so. 

Shannon: All right, mine are these top, and yours are the bottom

Nievita, enthusiastic: Okay! Scha-weet. We'll post that online. (Shannon laughs)

Shannon: But I will say, there are quite a few unknowns, but (laughs) we got a lot of confirms.

Nievita: But I think the unknowns are actually ones that are likely to happen, but (Shannon, overlapping: I think so, yeah) we haven't quite gotten there yet.

Shannon: Yeah, 'cause there are a few times that're like yes I see this coming, it's gonna happen, but we can't say confirmed yet because...

Nievita: Right. (Shannon laughs) Okay--

Shannon: --Oh, I did want to say like, about the ghost writer thing? (N: Oh yeah, go ahead) I was like, (laughs) my response to that question was: Oh noes, you know our secret! Just kidding... we totally did not ghost write this, at least I didn't, and I know damn well that if Nievita had, she would not have been able to keep her mouth shut about it. (laughs) 

Nievita, indignant: I'm really good about keeping secrets...

Shannon, still laughing: Yes, but not this.

Nievita, mock-peeved: Okay, fine. (Shannon laughs)

Shannon: And like yeah, I think your predictions were a little more specific than mine in a lot of ways? (N: Mm-hmm) 'cause like I would have never thought of the motorcycle (Shannon laughs, Nievita makes a finger guns clicking noise) and that was spot-on. (N: uh-huh) So maybe at least one of us is a little bit psychic? 

Nievita, bashful: Maybe... (both laugh)

Shannon: I've always been more of like an empath, (N, laughing: Yeah) but not... (Shannon laughs then sighs) And I am also concerned about how they're going to deal with the trashed room. (laughs)

Nievita: Mm-hmm. She ended the sampler on the cliffhanger. (laughs)

Shannon: Uh-huh. (laughs) All right, so. What were your overall impressions of the excerpt?

Nievita: So, we talked about this a little bit, but it definitely moved faster than a lot of the Raven cycle, (S: Mm-hmm) and in fact a lot of her books in general--this really had a pace that... it swept you up. Like you had a lot of questions right off the bat. (S: Mm-hmm) We were getting new characters thrown at us left and right, new factions, new world building, (S: uh-huh) very brief touches on old characters and backgrounds of people we already knew. (S: Right) So that was my overall impression. (S: Right) What about you?

Shannon: I really liked it. It was really exciting, (N: Mm-hmm) to see how much of what I wanted her to deal with and talk about (N: Mm-hmm) that she's actually, like, dealing with even in these first eight chapters of what's gonna be a three book series. (N: Right) It still has a very Raven Cycle feel, like, (N: Mm-hmm) so you can still tell where its roots are? (N: Mm-hmm) But it's also very clearly its own thing, (N: Right) which I think is cool.

Nievita: Right. Okay! Did it meet expectations?

Shannon, excitedly: Yesyesyesyesyes! (Both laugh) Like, I was so excited to read this and I cannot wait for the book this fall, it's gonna be awesome.

Nievita: Good!

Shannon: Yeah, and... I'm sure that the fact that I'm so excited about this makes you happy because of how long (Nievita laughs, then Shannon starts laughing) how long it took me to warm up to Ronan.

Nievita: Uh-huh. (Shannon continues laughing) Yeah. And for me, yeah, I think it met my expectations as well, and I'm really intrigued to see how it goes forward, and how it maintains this momentum. (S: Mm-hmm) There was just so much right out of the gate (S: Right) and it's gonna be interesting to see if that pace continues.

Shannon: Mm-hmm.Okay, things overall that we liked or what worked for us. 

Nievita: All of the scenes between Ronan and Adam, of course. (S: Mm-hmm) We see them being very physically affectionate with each other, (S: Mm-hmm) and we get things like page 39, "The words were only an excuse to breathe in Ronan's ear; it made a marvel of his nerve endings." And it's--

Shannon, overlapping: --I was like, AAAAAHHHH...

Nievita: --it's wonderful to see, they're attracted to each other and they want to be together. 

Shannon: Uh-huh, it's really sweet.

Nievita: Yeah. And it's not commented on; that's the other nice thing. (S: Right) I was also super happy to see the Lynch brothers together! (S: uh-huh) Declan is so older brother annoyed, and Matthew is so younger brother adorable. 

S: Uh-huh.I love Matthew. (N: Yeah) I love Declan too, but--

Nievita, softly: --I love Declan too. (Shannon laughs)

Shannon: I swear if I ever get a golden retriever puppy its name is gonna be Matthew.

Nievita: Awwww! (both laugh) I would say Jordan/Hennessy definitely intrigued me more than Carmen (S: Mm-hmm) but I think-- (S, overlapping: Me too) --I think Carmen is going to be one of those characters, much like Gansey, who--  (S: uh-huh) --she seems to share a lot of characteristics with, (S: Yeah) will be revealed as being deeper and deeper as time goes on. (S: Right) And like you mentioned, it feels like an extension of a TRC book, like.. (S: Right) the prologue language is very similar to the dream thieves with the repetitions of three and the fairy tale sort of story structure?

Shannon, overlapping: Right, mm-hmm.

Nievita: And you get a lot of hints and phrases and, of course, you know it's Maggie's language, (S: Mm-hmm) it's sort of her palette that she's working with so it's gonna have some sort of feeling. It does feel like the magic is still there.

Shannon: Right, and the fairy tale stuff has always been so centered around Ronan and the Lynches in general. (N: right) So, like, it makes sense if that will be something that carries over. (N: right) And I feel like we see Ronan having matured so much even since the end of the Raven King. (N: right) He seems so much more like, adult and grown-up now, (N: Mm-hmm) and that is awesome.

Nievita: I think we saw that in Opal too... (S, overlapping: Mm-hmm, like I think...) like him having (S: Mm-hmm)  measured thoughtful responses to Adam (S: right) was very clear to me in the Opal short stories as well.

Shannon, overlapping: Mm-hmm, absolutely, but I'm just saying like, it'd (N: Mm-hmm) this is something that is continuing, which is really good. (N: right) It's nice to see that character growth. (N: Mm-hmm) There's so much less lashing out, but while he's still being like his sour self; like he's still Ronan (Nievita, laughing: Like me) but he's still very much Ronan. 

Nievita, laughing: Still grumpy.

Shannon: Yeah. And Adam has helped him so much, and I think Ronan has helped Adam too in a lot of ways---

Nievita, overlapping: --I think so too, mm-hmm--

Shannon, overlapping: --yeah, and I love how it still feels very much like the same characters (N: Mm-hmm) just a little older and more mature and it's still clearly a new story. 

Nievita: Right. (S: Mm-hmm) So, things overall that we disliked or didn't work for us? 

Shannon, laughing: Is it bad that the first and pretty much only thing that I thought of was like, the mental trash talking of cats in the beginning? 

Nievita, laughing: Oh my god. (Shannon laughs heartily, Nievita laughs under her breath.) The Venn Diagram people who would throw cats (Shannon starts laughing again) are cats. Of course a cat would throw itself! It's a cat! 

(Shannon continues laughing, Nievita joins)

Shannon: And, a lot of that is in the final version. (N: uh-huh) And it was mainly talking about dream cats. (N: mm-hmm) And another thing was like, the moderators are very clear that, oh... these aren't real things, and they're almost like, they're afraid of them (N: mmm) and that whole like "not realness" kind of extends to Zeds as well? (N: Right) Mm-hmm? (N: Yeah) And like, I know that the-the moderators are being set up to be the bad guys (N: Right) and that whole concept is gonna be a major plot point in the book. (N: mm-hmm) It's-yeah, I'm just like waiting to see how that plays out, but it did a good job of being like, uhhhh... I don't really (N, overlapping: Right) like where their thoughts are on this. Not so much that like, you know, oh oh, it's nothing that like, doesn't work for me in the book, it's something of--

Nievita: --Ick, yeah--

Shannon: Yeah, kind of like, uhhhhhgh (N: Mm-hmm) this is - this is gonna be problamatic--

Nievita, overlapping: --This is uncomfortable and (S: uh-huh) yeah. The line about, "or their victim, depending on how human one found him." (S: uh-huh) Yeah.

Shannon: Exactly. And also I know the whole, "dream things aren't really alive" thing is canon, but I am gonna die on that hill. (Shannon starts laughing) 

Nievita, placating: Alrighty. (both laughing) Okay, for me? The things that I didn't like, didn't work for me? That was only eight damn chapters. (Starts laughing)

Shannon, laughing: The entire book is coming out in a few months...

Nievita, emphatic and amused: Four! Months! 125 daaaaays, apparently (both laugh) until we Get. The Book. (Shannon laughing in the background) I don't like that, that did not work for me. (Shannon starts laughing even more loudly) 

Nievita, laughing: M-kay.

(Both laughing)

Shannon: I love you...

Nievita, laughing affectionately: Okay, I love you too. (both continue laughing for a moment) And I don't know if this is something I disliked, or just something that was more challenging than I was expecting, but all of the new factions and the new vocabulary dropped into a world that we were already familiar with? (S: Right) Kind of, it felt like a game of juggling (S: Mm-hmm) to me. Which is great, it's just... I wasn't expecting it.

Shannon: Right, and I think it was kind of the point because, like, I think part of the point is busting up what you already know and (N: Right) you know...

Nievita: It's a different book! 

Shannon: Mm-hmm, and just even characters, like, they're moving on, they're trying something new they're like, (N: Mm-hmm) yeah, that kind of thing.

Nievita: Okay. 

Shannon: Okay. Were there any moments or details that surprised or shocked you? 

Nievita: Matthew not having fingerprints.

Shannon: That was really interesting.

Nievita: Not so much that it's a fact, because we could have guessed that,`but that she outright states it with no obfuscation. (Shannon laughs) Like, it's the (S: Mm-hmm) one of the first things we learn about Matthew.

Shannon: And you can be born without fingerprints--

Nievita, softly: --he wasn't (laughs)--

Shannon: It's very, very rare...

Nievita, still laughing: But he wasn't. (laughs)

Shannon: Yeah! 

Nievita: Forged birth certificate and no fingerprints. (S: uh-huh) The fact that Ronan saw Adam pushing his bike on the side of the road and closed his eyes, and sent up, "a simple inexplicable, desperate prayer to God: Please." 

Shannon: Awwwww... they're so sweet! (both laughing and making affectionate noises)

Nievita: Yeah... and then... you know, it's not shocking but surprising; just so much growth in Adam (S: mmm-hmm) to be shown so quickly (S: Yeah) even though there are things that are worrisome there, right? But Adam asking for things that he wants, (S: mmm-hmm) asking for Ronan to come to Cambridge, asking for help from Fletcher? At the (S: Yeah) end, making his own bundle of friends to support him? This is... a different Adam. (S: Yeah) And I think Adam we know we see underneath there, but--

Shannon: --oh yeah, it's definitely still Adam, (N: mmm-hmm) but it's-it's a more grown-up, more mature Adam. (N: mmm-hmm) Which is really good to see.

Nievita: Yeah. All right, how about-- 

Shannon: I was honestly surprised the motorcycle thing happened so soon--

Nievita, laughing, yells in the background: Yes! (Shannon starts laughing)

Shannon: And like you, I was happy to see how much Ronan and Adam had grown. (N: mmm-hmm)  And also the fact that Adam loses his accent completely in his first semester of college, (N: mmm-hmm) like I can attest that this is a thing that happens. That's what happened to my accent. Basically like, everyone's accent's meld. (N: Mmmm) You get people from all over and your accents all meld; 'cause like, yeah, I lost my accent and in school I went to was in Appalachia. (Shannon starts laughing) 

Nievita: Uh-huh.

Shannon: So yeah. Most satisfying moment? I think I don't even have to ask this one to you... 

Nievita, gasping with excitement: I am not even going to try to lie, I... I straight-up gasped out loud, and then had to stop reading. (starts laughing)

Shannon, laughing: I think you texted me just as soon as you read it--

Nievita: I- oooooh my god. And then, like, I had to pace for a bit? (both laugh) and it was just the like-it was just the line when Ronan thought about how, "Adam was always talking about how he would trade his car for a motorcycle if he could."

(Shannon starts laughing, Nievita makes a screeching noise) 

Shannon: She honest to god texted me and was like, "Oh my god, there's this line that I was just was like, AAAAAAAHHHH MY GAHD." (Nievita laughs in the background) And I'm like, I was like, I was reading through it and I saw it and I was like, there it is. (Nievita starts laughing more) That's what it is! (Both laugh)

Nievita: Pretty much...

Shannon: She got her motorcycle! (Nievita cackles, Shannon joins) 

Nievita: Yup. (both laugh) All right. But, we had an anonymous message on Tumblr say, spoilers!!!!! Don’t read this if u don’t want any spoilers!!  This was like the day that it came out. I’m making this long so I’m not mean and potentially ruin something for you!!!! Seriously, don’t read this. It’s not a major spoiler or anything, but it still counts. Okay, now that that’s out of the way: motorcycles are present in call down the hawk. you may get your wish <3 (Shannon starts laughing)

Nievita: So, I'm pretty happy that Adam-Parrish-needs-an-M-effing-motorcycle-in-the-Dreamer-Trilogy is my legacy. (Shannon laughs uproariously) All right.

Shannon: That is awesome. M-kay...

Nievita, overlapping: What was yours--satisfying moment?

Shannon: Probably a tie between seeing Ronan's point of view both then and now of the fight with Adam's dad? (Nievita makes a clicking noise, then: Yeah) That was pretty... like, yeah. And finding out that Adam is paying it forward so hard by finding people who need friends the most (N: Mm-hmm) and being their friend, there's like--

Nievita, overlapping: --those--

Both: Yeah... 

Nievita: Okay. We had a message from mementomorimy on Instagram that said:
Firstly: Adam. Motorcycle. Which we just addressed (Nievita laughs, S: uh-huh)
Secondly: Adam. Harvard. 
Thirdly: the fire the Visionaries mention, is it somehow related to the fire Opal found? 

Shannon: Hmm. So, I know you are thrilled about firstly, we talked about that. (N: Yeah) I am excited about secondly (N: Mm-hmm) because even though I'm not a huge fan of Ivy League schools in general, it's nice as the Adam getting what he wants. 

Nievita: Yes, and it's interesting that Harvard was not his first choice. (laughs)

Shannon, questioning: Yeah... what...wonder what his first... Yale? 

Nievita: I don't know... MIT?

Shannon: Maybe.

Nievita: Yeah.

Shannon: And as for thirdly, maybe? I'm having trouble remembering the details of the fire... that Opal had. 

Nievita, overlapping: I did look it up. (S: Okay) The passage is... Opal is poking around in the barns; she occasionally comes across some dream things, and this was the passage: “It was not that these things were dangerous, although sometimes they were — she had found a small, ever-smoldering fire underneath an old tractor in one of the barns, and had discovered the hard way that it was hot enough to burn if you squeezed it very tight.” (S: Hmm) But that, compared to: “Each of the Visionaries spoke of an apocalypse brought up about in the same way, with starving, unquenchable fire." 

Shannon: Right, I don't think it's... the same level. 

Nievita, overlapping: I don't think they're related, not to say that Ronan couldn't dream (laughs a little) a starving (S: mmm-hmm) and unquenchable fire. I'm not sure that that particular fire is the one (S: mmm-hmm) that's related. Certainly there is a ton of fire imagery already in Call Down The Hawk. (S: Right) The end line of the prologue is, "Something was going (both together) to burn." (S: mmm-hmm) And that's in reference to Declan.

Shannon, enthusiastic: Yeah!

Nievita: And then Nathan, who is the Zed that is Carmen's brother. (S: mmm-hmm) "Nathan had been their best lead so far. They already knew he wanted to see the world burn. But his death hadn’t stopped the Visionary’s fiery prophecies.”

Shannon: Right... 

Nievita: This is uh... an aside: we didn't really put down most heartbreaking moments.

Shannon: Aww, okay.

Nievita: Is there anything off the top of your head? 

Shannon, overlapping: Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that just broke my heart. 

Nievita: Okay. I think so much of what Adam has done and become is very heartbreaking in a way, and I wonder if he uses his psychic ability to sense or find people who are crying and sad--if he's actually using some sort of psychic sense? (Shannon: Maybe) And so, that's the collection of The Crying Club. (S: mmm-hmm) 

Nievita: And then, like you said, finally to see that night of the fight between Ronan and Robert Parrish from Ronan's perspective (S: Right) was really heartbreaking as well for me. (S: mm-hmm) And, Adam lying about his father (S: Yeah...) and then almost breaking down about it? (S: mm-hmm) Almost crying? Like, Adam Parrish? 

Nievita, getting choked up: And Adam saying, I want it too much when all through the Raven Cycle it was like, "What do you want, Adam? (S: mm-hmm) What do you need Adam? Like, this is something he's decided he wants... and that something is for Ronan to be with him. (voice breaking) 

Shannon: It's so sweet. (Nievita, softly: Yeah.) And like, I totally get why he would want to just like, totally divorce himself from his parents and like, the thoughts of what had happened and--

Nievita: Yeeeaah. I thought it was very telling the... oh, I didn't write down the actual wording, but how Ronan said it wasn't a fight between them, it was a fight with Adam and himself (S: Uh-huh) and a fight with Ronan between the black and white way he saw the world and the way everyone else saw it. (S: Right) He's recognizing that (S: mm-hmm) and that is amazing. (voice breaking again) 

Shannon: Yeah, they've both come so far.

Nievita, softly: I agree, yeah. (stronger) All right.

Timestamp: 0:42:10 

Shannon: Biggest questions or mysteries raised by the sampler?

Nievita: One of my biggest mysteries was on Page 6, "'Please don't kill the trees,' he said." --

Shannon: --is that, like, his version of Cabeswater?

Nievita: Yeah! Does that imply that dreamers and tire e e'lintes, or entities like Cabeswater wo--

Shannon: --yeah, I-I-

Nievita: --work together?--

Shannon: --I think I talk about this in a few minutes (N: Okay) (unintelligible)

Nievita: I was like, wwwwwwwwwwwhhhat? (S: Mm-hmm) Please don't kill the trees? (S: Mm-hmm) Also, why did the dreamers, the  Zeds, have to be killed? (S: Mm-hmm) Has anyone tried rehabilitation or controlled dreaming? Has there been any society/agencies set up to train the dreamers, so they're not dangerous? (laughs) (S: Mm-hmm) Is there? Was there? Did anyone try? And then, (S: Yeah) of course, I think the other is who is Bryde.

Shannon: Yeah, that's a good question. (both laugh) There's so many questions.

Nievita: Yeah, how 'bout you?

Shannon: I want to know what Chainsaw and Opal are up to. Like--

Nievita, laughing: --oh, yeah, we talk about that a little bit later.

Shannon: Uh-huh. And like, where they're gonna go if Ronan moves to Cambridge. (N: Uh-huh) I want to know what the key Declan was talking about is... (N: Mmmmm) I want to know what that is...

Nievita: I have a theory (S: Mm-hmm) on that.

Shannon: And I want to know why Matthew walks in a straight line if he isn't paying attention.

Nievita, thoughfully: Yeah...

Shannon: I thought that was really interesting. Is he following the ley line? 

Nievita: I thought about that too, mm-hmm-- 

Shannon: --yeah, it's like, why would he do that and... because he's a dream thing? And like, (N: Mm-hmm) he's following the dream energy? (N: Yeah...) Like, is there something else going on there-like, is he just walking the ley line or is it trying to draw him somewhere.

Nievita: Oooooh... he doesn't know... 

Shannon: Yeah! Like I said, like, these are- (N: Mm-hmm) these were all mysteries.

Nievita: All right. Do you think someone would be able to pick this up as a standalone without reading the Raven Cycle? 

Shannon: Having been so in depth into the Raven Cycle, (N: Mm-hmm) this is kind of hard to answer. (N: Right) I would say so? I feel like we get just enough backstory to make things make sense? (N: Okay) I think this story has a different enough focus that it would be fine to pick it up and... (N: Mm-hmm) yeah. But then again, I'm half of a podcast doing a beat by beat analysis of the Raven Cycle (N: Right) so all this backstory is already in my head. (N: Right) So like, it's kind of hard to imagine reading it without that knowledge. 

Nievita: Right, and I said, I can't even imagine how someone would be able to come into this without having read the Raven Cycle. (S: Mm-hmm) Probably for the same reasons. And I'm definitely someone who likes just being thrown into the deep end without a ton of exposition at the beginning of a book, (S: Mm-hmm) but even I would have found this really hard to get up to speed. I think I would have had to just take a lot of stuff on faith. 

Shannon: Mm-hmm, yeah, it would be like, interesting to hand this to somebody who's never read The Raven Cycle and see what they make of it--

Nievita: --or listen to our podcast, so--

Shannon: Yeah.

Nievita: --can't be your partner. (Nievita laughs, then Shannon joins) They're the-- they're the only, uh... guinea pig we have, but... (both laugh) 

Shannon: Alright. Through lines and themes.

Nievita: Identity. (laughs a little) (S: Mm-hmm) Everyone is seeking theirs. Adam with a new life, Ronan walking away from the Barns, (S: Mm-hmm) Declan twisting his way through his boredom, Jordan pretending to be another person, Carmen with a smaller version of herself screaming inside of her. (S: Uh-huh) And then also tied to identity, I'm really thrilled about the diversity so far (S: Yeah) with Jordan being a dark-skinned kinky-haired woman, (S: Mm-hmm) and the gender presentation of Elliot using they/them pronouns? (S: Right) I would also say that people were up in arms about Ronan not using the word "gay" is the Raven Cycle? He definitely admits it here, and he uses the term queer t- (S: Mm-hmm) to describe The Crying Club. There's no... (S: Right)  mincing around the sexuality at all; we'll see if Adam says bi later, but-- 

Shannon: --right, but yeah like, throughout the Raven Cycle, Ronan was trying to accept that in himself. (N: Right) So like, I am okay with him not saying it (N: Mm-hmm) and, I-I think it's good that he says it now.

Nievita: Correct, yeah... (S: Mm-hmm) How about you? 

Shannon: Some things that I saw were uh... some themes were, dreaming and magic and humanity at war.

Nievita: Mmmmm... yeah, Bryde has a big piece of (S: Mm-hmm) a quote about that, yeah.

Shannon, overlapping: Yeah, a-and it's like, you know, we see it's there with the moderators. It's almost in a way there with the attempt to go to Cambridge, and just, (N: Mm-hmm) you know, Ronan wanting to be a part of society and being normal and being uh, versus like have--

Nievita, overlapping: --being a real boy. (starts laughing)

Shannon: Yeah, like, having to deal with his dreaming. (N: Mm-hmm) Trying to find yourself, like you said, like identity and- (N: Mm-hmm) -and that kind of stuff. Everybody's trying new things and... (N: Mm-hmm) the ability to change. 

Nievita: Mmmm, yeah... Ronan-- 

Shannon: --is another, yeah, Ronan, and like, even when they're talking about the Zeds. Can they change, can they stop dreaming? (N: Right) It's more of: can they be what we want them to be, rather than can they be (Nievita, laughing: Right) y-yeah. 

Shannon: Dealing with trauma. (N: Yeah) Again, we have a whole lot of traumatized people. (N: Right, right) And Adam and Ronan have had the Raven Cycle to deal with their stuff but we can still see that they're still working through it in a lot of ways.

Nievita: Yeah, and the very beginning with the Lynch brothers... (laughs)

Shannon: The orphans Lynch. 

Nievita: The orphans Lynch, but... I don't even think I put it in my notes anywhere, but the part about Declan. "Declan was a collector of beautiful specific phrases that he would not let himself use in public, and the possessor of an illuminated specific smile no one would ever see." 

Shannon: Which is sad..!

Nievita: Which is very sad. Yeah. (Shannon sighs) In fact my note is...

(rustling noises as Nievita shows Shannon her notes)

Shannon: "So sad!" (Nievita laughs) she wrote. (Shannon sighs) Yeah, and the last thing I have is like, finding or defining, or wanting/not wanting home. (N: Mmmm... mmm-hmm) 'cause like, even there's Ronan and Adam but there's also Carmen... (N: Mm-hmm) whether or not she can go back to the way things before (N: Right) she started...

Nievita: With the Moderators. (S: Yeah) The line about the smaller version of her inside kicking and screaming (S: Mm-hmm) it's like, (S: Yeah) obviously trauma, possibly there too. (S: Right) 

Nievita: Okay. A favorite scene, detail, or quote. 

Shannon: I love the detail of Adam losing his accent and I talked about that a minute ago. (N: Mm-hmm) I love that he says Ronan smells like home (N, affectionately: Mm-hmm) and that reminds me of Gansey saying he remembered when Ronan used to smell like the Barns when they go- (N: Mm-hmm) -when they go there. I also really liked the DC Black Market is called the Fairy Market. (N: Mm-hmm) And yeah, and my favorite quote is probably the, "Dreams are not the safest thing to build a life on." 

Nievita: Yeah.

Shannon: I thought that was a really good quote.

Nievita: One of the things that I noted with "classic fucking Maggie" (both laugh) was: the end of Chapter 1 says,"'Have we saved the world?' 'Too soon to say.'" Turn the page to the beginning of Chapter 2 and, (Shannon begins talking at same time) "Ronan Lynch was about to end the world." 

Shannon, pleased: Uh-huh! (Both laugh)

Nievita: It's like (big dramatic sigh) Ohh, Maggie! (both laugh) I also loved the hat tip to the Raven King on page 18, the last line of Chapter 2 is, "He began to dream." 

Shannon: Oh yeeaaahhh...

Nievita, overlapping: --'cause that's the last line of the Raven King.

Shannon: Yeeeaaaahhhh... 

Nievita: And then my favorite straight up quote is probably the passage from Bryde on page 20, "If you've ever looked into a fire and been unable to look away, it's that. If you've ever looked at the mountains and found you're not breathing, it's that. If you've ever looked at the moon and felt tears in your eyes, it's that."

Shannon, with emotion: That's a really beautiful passage.

Nievita: It is.

Shannon: Mm-hmm...

Nievita, softly: Yeah.

Shannon: M-kay. So, discuss differences between the ARC (Advance Reader Copy) and the final version?

Nievita: The biggest one for me was that I feel like the separation between Jordan and Hennessy was much more vague in the ARC? Like, the whole chapter with Jordan seemed to be changed the most as far as I could tell. (S: Mm-hmm) I-it was way more delineated between the two of them.

Shannon: M-kay, yeah.

Nievita: paintedpolarbear on Tumblr said: After reading the excerpt, what are you most excited for Maggie to tackle in the dreamer trilogy? What new themes, arcs, or story elements are you most looking forward to being introduced? And I kind of had already put down: what our new wants or predictions for the series. 

Shannon: Mm-hmm. It's actually really heading right where I wanted it to (N: Mm-hmm) um, in a lot of ways. It looks like we're gonna learn more about dreaming and how it works, (N: Mm-hmm) which is super exciting. We might get a little more explanation on the differences between a Zed and a Greywaren, (N: Mm-hmm) if there is one. (N: Mm-hmm) 

Shannon: I want to know if there are different types of dreamers, and the Moderators just don't understand and just lump them all together? (N: Mm-hmm) Because we saw that at least some Zeds have the same like, you know, "I have to dream or I die" thing that Ronan does. (N: Right) We don't know that Kavinsky had that, but an explanation for that could be that dreamers draw from different places? It's like they can't all draw from Cabeswater. (N: Right) And maybe each of the places has a Greywaren... (N: Hmmmm) who can't leave the area where they're drawing from; maybe the (??) clear there to protect the area? 

Nievita: Mm-hmm.

Shannon: That kind of thing. And we mentioned this before: are they all tir e e'lenthe related or on a ley line? (N: Right) Like we w-like were talking with the like, don't kill the trees. (N: Right) I'm also looking forward to learning more about visionaries. It crossed my mind as I was writing this that, if each Cabeswater has a Greywaren, maybe they each have a magician as well.

Nievita: Mmmmm. Hmm.

Shannon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, but then again it seems like there's only one visionary at a time? So, you know, maybe that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So...

Nievita: And I don't know that the magician for Cabeswater- 'cause Cabeswater, or Lindenmere, he says it is a thing that has been manifested as a forest. (S: Right) So, this is a thing that is singular. I would think that the, "Don't kill the trees"? is different.

Shannon: Yeeeaaah, okay!

Nievita: To me. (S, overlapping: Yeah, okay) because... the fact that this is a thing that has been manifested as a forest, does not mean that there are a ton of manifested forests (S: Right) out there.

Shannon: Okay.

Nievita: But that's how I interpreted it, I'm not sure! (S: M-kay) I mean we know that the tir e e'lintes... that they lived on the corpse roads-that is something that Artemis says. (S: Right) I do believe that the ley lines are gonna be a big part of it. I do believe (S: Mm-hmm) that there will be some of that old magic as part of all of this but... (S: Right) we'll see! We'll find out, hopefully. (laughs)

Shannon: M-kay.

Nievita: Mine on this? (S: Mm-hmm) In the Opal Special Episode I talked about the scope creep and I mentioned it a little bit before, (S: uh-huh) and how the Dreamer Trilogy would have to grow outside of the Barns and outside of Henrietta. (S: Mm-hmm) And so Maggie has already done that, she's taking us to other countries right off the bat.

Shannon: Right.

Nievita: So I'm really excited to see how she turns this into a global very high-stakes environment, and the hint with the watch that shows Adam the time zone that Ronan is in?

Shannon, with realization: Right!

Nievita: It's very telling, like... why would he need that if Ronan--

Shannon, overlapping: --right, because Ronan doesn't go anywhere--

Nievita: --lives at the Barns. Right. (both laugh) I'm also really interested in seeing magic as a global phenomenon like we're talking about. We know that dreaming and possibly the magical forests are not just limited to Virginia and the Lynch family. (S: Mm-hmm) I'm also really looking forward to the tug between the black market or the clandestine activities versus the making of an upstanding, sort-of straightforward path.

Shannon: Right. Lots of stuff to look for! 

Nievita: Yeah.

Shannon: Anything that scares you?

Nievita: That Declan will be the antagonist or villain? (nervous laugh)

Shannon: Ooooohhhh, mm-hmm!

Nievita: And/or that he will die?

Shannon: Yeah, that would be bad.

Nievita: As others have pointed out, Ronan says, "We'll be driving to your funeral by the end." 

Shannon: Uh-huh! 

Nievita: You had better not, Maggie. (Shannon laughs) I am serious. (both chuckle nervously)

Shannon: Nooooooo dying Declan!

Nievita: She made a tweet quite a while ago about finally finding the thing that will break an unbreakable character, and we had here on page 4, "Declan broke first." 

Shannon, overlapping: --broke first.

Nievita: I'm pretty convinced that the key that Declan asked for would be some sort of passcode to get him into the Fairy Market? (S, surprised: Huh!) And maybe he's had those connections from Niall's business, or maybe he made those connections for himself living in DC. (S: Right) I also really don't like the line from page 51, Carmen is told to  "...find the Zed he's seeing." He being Parsifal. "Be on the lookout for another Visionary to replace him." 

Shannon: Yeeeaah.

Nievita: That deeeeeply implies one of our other characters, and (sing-song) who's the psychic one?

Shannon: Uh-huh! 

Nievita: And, I am also just scared-tense about the fact that Declan, Jordan, and Carmen are all converging in DC--

Shannon, overlapping: --on DC... mm-hmm! 

Shannon: So... my thoughts were, I do not want Adam to become a visionary. (laughs) (N: Mmmm) I don't want him to have that stress on him. (N, sighing: Yeah) Yeah. I don't want him to have to drop out of or get kicked out of Harvard! 

Nievita, sighing again: Yeah. (S: Uh-huh) Noooo, we can't have that happen...

Shannon: Nooo, but him becoming the visionary is totally the kind of thing where the- (laughs) like, I can totally see that happening?

Nievita: It's fiction guys, there's got to be some sort of conflict. (laughs)

Shannon: Uh-huh, uh-like you said it's almost guaranteed to be a character we've seen before, a character we know--

Nievita, overlapping: --I think so yeah...

Shannon: And my thought was, what if it's Declan? Like, what if it's the one who's been the outsider regarding all the magical stuff all along. In the first chapter we see... first or second chapter? I forget which... we see someone kill their dreamer brother. 

Nievita: Yeah, I-noooo! (laugh/crying)

Shannon: Y-no! I mean, I don't want that either, but I'm like--

Nievita: That Declan would be the visionary... that would be the one that's having psychic visions (S: Right) of dreamers. (S: Yeah) Well, we do know that he takes sleeping pills... that's pretty frightening. 

Shannon: Mmmm, we have another character who has a dreamer brother! (laughs) 

Nievita: Yeah, but Carmen's not the visionary, so... 

Shannon: Well, that's true.

Nievita: Yeah. (Shannon sighs) It's more like... Declan might become a moderator. (laughs) Yeah.

Shannon: That's true too.

Nievita: Okay, another question from two-of-swords-621 said to ravingirls: For your special CDTH episode, do you think there is still a distinction between a Zed and a Greywaren? Is Ronan a different kind of dreamer than the other Zeds?

Shannon: I'm really unsure at this point. (N: Mm-hmm) I was pretty sure Ronan is distinct from the other dreamers like, by the end in the Raven Cycle. (N: Uh-huh) But like I mentioned earlier there's some indication that at least sooome of the other dreamers have similar things going on as Ronan does. (N: Uh-huh) I still say yeah he's different, but I'm excited to see how this plays out and whether we get an answer. 

Nievita: Yeah, mine was like it's such a good question because I personally do think that there is something significant and different about Ronan, if only simply because fiction tends to follow the extraordinary versus the ordinary? (laughs) 

Shannon: Right, exactly.

Nievita: I'm very curious about Bryde... and how they fit into this. (S: Yeeeaah) Mentor? Greywaren? Some... (S: Yeah) ancient power? So--

Shannon: --who knows--

Nievita: --Bryde's the one that I'm more like, w-where does that person/entity (S: Mm-hmm) fall on this scale--

Shannon, overlapping: --is it even a person, yeah--

Nievita: --because Ronan gets from the forest that Bryde's a dreamer, (S: Mm-hmm) but dreamer seems to be like, in the Venn diagram of things, the larger... (laughs)

Shannon: Mm-hmm. 

Nievita, laughing: All I'm saying is that... you have subsets of dreamer being this big nebulous group, and then possibly Zeds being a part-or just a different name for dreamer, (S: Mm-hmm) and then you have the possibility of Greywaren being a subsection of dreamer/Zed.

Shannon: Right.

Nievita: All right. How do you feel about the renaming of Cabeswater...

Shannon: I understand why Ronan would want to change the name, because it is technically a new thing? It's not really Cabeswater anymore? (N: Okay) In some ways. (N: mm-hmm) And Lindenmere is a pretty word. (N: mm-hmm) But I will miss calling it Cabeswater. 

Nievita: I- that's the problem is I think I'll get mixed up. (S: mm-hmm) Yeah, I'm honestly having a hard time with it which is why I asked the question? (both laugh) But I did find some items of interest related to the name (S: Okay) so I wanted to go through those. 

Nievita: #1, there is a “Camp Lindenmere”. It's a Pennsylvania summer camp for kids and teens--

Shannon: --I saw that when I looked it up.--

Nievita, laughing: --okay. Located in the Poconos.

Nievita: #2, “The Lindenmere” is a 8.2-acre Long Island estate once owned by Filipino President Ferdinand Marcos and his first lady, Imelda. (S: Hah!) The Lindenmere dates back to the early 1900s, “It was the Roaring 20s.. speakeasies, sailing parties..." and there was a... "influential people of the same social circle as longtime owners, the New York City Mayor Jimmy Walker was one such friend, who gifted the family a number of Linden trees," which I will get into, "which is how the estate was named.” 

Nievita: Now the linden tree. It's a highly symbolic tree; (S: Okay) it's actually got a lot of mythology around it. It's used often in myths and poetry including like... Tolkien had it in a lot of his poems. (S: Interesting) From the website Our Woodland Ways the article, “Mythology of Trees; The Linden Tree”: "In Slavic mythology the belief is held that the Linden tree is sacred, and in many Eastern European countries it is upheld as ‘Holy’, as a result many villages and towns are named after the Linden." So, the linden is a type of lime... tree.

Shannon: Ah, interesting!

Nievita: Yeah. "In Slovenia the tradition of Lime trees representing places where common decision making or matters of importance are discussed holds with many towns and villages having a Lime tree growing in its centre. Equally in Germany where the tradition of planting Limes in towns and villages existed, we can also see in Berlin with the ‘Unter den Linten‘ has had an avenue of Limes growing down it since the 16th Century, representing the cultural heart of the city prior to the second world war."

Nievita: "Throughout the Baltic, the tree is also associated with the goddess Laima who is responsible for the fate of childbirth, marriage and patron saint of pregnant women." (S: Hmm) I'll skip the part about good luck and fertility... (Shannon chuckles)

Nievita: "In Celtic and Germanic tradition the Lime is seen to inspire fairness and justice and as a result evidence was heard beneath a Lime. Those traditions have much in common with the Baltic traditions of Limes representing meeting places and cultural centres, along with the more gruesome tradition of administering ‘justice’ or sacrifice beneath a Lime!"

Nievita: And then "mere" (Nievita spelles it out M-E-R-E)... (S: mm-hmm) The word mere is recorded in Old English as ″sea" or "lake″. The Indo-European root *mori gave also birth to similar words in the other European languages: Latin mare ″sea″, which we talked about before (S: mm-hmm) Italian mare, Spanish mar, French mer; Old Celtic *mori ″sea″ and Old Slavic morje. (S: M-kay)

Nievita: Basically it's this... sacred tree... lake. (S: mm-hmm) And then on page 53, “It was a name out of a poem that had never existed. It didn't sound dangerous”. I like that it's couched in that phrase, (S: Riiiight) because it's not that it isn't dangerous--

Shannon: --it's that it doesn't soooound dangerous.

Nievita, overlapping: --it doesn't sound (laughs) dangerous. (Shannon laughs)

Nievita: I did find a poem, Ancient Poetry Corner--

Shannon: --of course!

Nievita: From The Vigil of Faith, the Legend of the Sources of the Hudson by Charles Fenno Hoffman, pub. 1845, where the scene of Kashesco is laid among the Adirondack Mountains on the shore of a lake called Inca-pah-co, which the notes say may be Englishized as Lindenmere, (S: Huh) one of a long chain of lakes which discharged themselves into the St. Lawrence, but which are closely interlaced with the head lakes of the Hudson. The poem:

When, issuing first from forest shade
A day of storms had darker made,
   Thy floating Isles and mountains blue, 
Thy water sparkling far away
Round craggy point and verdant bay --
The point with dusky cedars crowned,
The bay with beach of silver bound --
     Upon my raptured vision grew. 
   Grew every moment, brighter, fairer, 
     As I, at close of that wild day, 
   Emerging from the green wood nearer, 
Saw the red sun his glorious path
Cleaved through the storm-cloud's dying wrath, 
     And with one broad triumphant ray
Upon thy crimsoned waters cast, 
Sink warrior-like to rest at last. 

Shannon: Interesting...

Nievita: And that's it that's---

Shannon: --is that all?

Nievita: --that's all for the Lindenmere.

Shannon: So, where do you think Opal and Chainsaw are during the road trip? 

Nievita: I'm pretty sure they're hanging out in Lindenmere, but (S: Mm-hmm) I'm getting a shit ton of joy thinking about Calla having to babysit Opal and Chainsaw. (Shannon gasps with delight) It brings me--

Shannon: --that would be amazing--

Nievita: --ssssoo much joy. (laughs) 

Shannon: Yeah, I really don't know where they are? I mean, in the Opal short story at the end Opal seemed okay with going into the dream forest again. (N: Mm-hmm) Like, at a later point (N: Mm-hmm) so maybe once Lindenmere is there... you know, (N: Right) she'll be okay going into it. So maybe they're both there???

Nievita: That's... yeah.

Shannon: Uh-huh. I was like, I know he can't take Opal with him to Cambridge if he goes? But Ronan better take Chainsaw 'cause he can't leave both his girls. (laughs) 

Nievita: Yeah, he would have to take Chainsaw. (Shannon laughs) Okay. Discrepancies between the Raven Cycle and Call Down The Hawk? 

Shannon: I thought about it and I was trying to think of any. (N: Mm-hmm) Like, I-I really had trouble finding any that came to mind. I know that you probably found some (Nievita laughs) as good as you are at digging up details. (Nievita, pleased: Mm-hmm) But I didn't see any that jump to mind as I was going through.

Nievita: Okay. (S: Okay) You are correct. (both laugh) Ronan's birthday. WTF. 

Shannon: Ah. Oh right! (Nievita laughs) Okay. 

Nievita: Okay. So, thecorvidrotation on Tumblr posted... they had gotten the sampler before a lot of other people: I’m staying firm on my “no leaking actual content” rule but I will tell you that Ronan’s birthday is officially November 14th. (and we might see his birthday again during the book)

Shannon: Hmm.

Nievita: No. (both laugh) Because November 14th is after Election Day in America, which means Mrs. Gansey would NOT be holding a last minute fundraiser. 

Shannon laughs heartily: That's--

Nievita: No.

Shanon, laughing again: Yeah.

Nievita: And! Gansey, the day after Ronan's birthday, mentions, "October green grass". Not November 14th. 

(Shannon chuckles, then both sigh)

Nievita: Oh yeah.

Shannon: Odd point. November 14th is one of my good friends from back home's birthday.

Nievita: Awwww. (Shannon chuckles) Well, I mean, it's much much closer to Maggie's birthday, my mom's birthday, one of my other good friends' birthday. (Shannon laughs) I mean it's a great day, if you have to pick one, but come on... (Shannon laughs) it's not the right one. 

Shannon: No, you did too much research for this to be like--

Nievita, sighing dramatically: It just-it literally is not possible. (Shannon laughs) 

Shannon: Okay, so Mrskelorra on Instagram says: My thought is that Adam didn’t intend to lie about his father, but he was on the phone with Gansey and the crying club heard and inferred that this was not infact an 18 year old dad-friend (Nievita snickers in the background) but a 45 year old real life dad, and Adam just rolled with it. (Nievita laughs) And I'm like, yes, headcanon, that works. (laughs)

Nievita: That's great. Yyyyeeess. Okay. Shannon, you knew it was coming. Bonus question: 

Shannon, laughing loudly: Okay, what's the bonus question?

Nievita: What are your theories about Jordan and Hennessy? 

Shannon: My theories about Jordan and Hennessy? 

Nievita: Mm-hmm. Because, it says on the back of the book blurb: "Jordan Hennessy is a thief." 

Shannon: Huh.

Nievita: One name. One person.

Shannon: Well, she's going by Hennessy.

Nievita: Uh-huh.

Shannon: So... huh. Yeah, it's really interesting, because like, we don't know anything about them yet really. (N: Right) That is really interesting, I hadn't thought about that, like, you know, i-it just goes with that name she first gives (N: Mm-hmm) which we know is not her real name. 

Nievita: Correct. Right... yeah. I mean, 'cause... I came into it thinking that it was one person (Shannon, overlapping: Ooohh, uh-huh) Jordan Hennessy (S: Right) Jordan Hennessy (S: Mm-hmm) is one person. And then... she walks up and she's like, I'm using the name Hennessy, my name is Jordan. Like, that's kind of her internal monologue--

Shannon, overlapping: --right, we don't get a last name or where she's from or anything about her.

Nievita: Right, but all the pre of the book was, it's one--

Shannon: --Jordan Hennessy--

Nievita: --person. (S: Mm-hmm) Obviously, that was kind of a surprise question so it--

Shannon: --yeah--

Nievita: --it hadn't really struck you then, that--

Shannon, overlapping: No, I like, I--

Nievita, overlapping: --that there there was anything weird there... 

Shannon: Mm-mm. It had been a while since I read the back, so it wasn't something that stuck with me to be like, oh you know--

Nievita: --that's odd or anything--

Shannon: --yeah. So what did you think? What are your thoughts?

Nievita: Well, I mean, it's... i-uh... question marks, right?  (S: Mm-hmm) 'cause it's like, are they two different people? Is it an alter ego? Are they lovers? Are they twins? And then my favorite theory is... are they a dreamer and a psychopomp?

Shannon: Hunh.

Nievita: Because the way Jordan reacts is very... kind of interestingly like the way Opal reacts. (Shannon, wonderingly: Yeeaaahhh) Like with the copying of people, and being able to pick things up from people (S: Right) very very quickly, and the observations, (S: Mm-hmm) and kind of that learned behavior. That's the theory I'm going with right now, or that it is- (S: Okay) or that Jordan is some sort of a dreamed construct of Hennessy.

Shannon: Ooh-kay. 

Nievita: Don't know that that's correct--

Shannon: --interesting--

Nievita: --but that's the theory that I'm going with right now. 

Shannon: Interesting.

Nievita: All right!

Shannon: All right. So, my question for you is... (N: Uh-huh) how are you going to survive until November? 

(Shannon laughs, Nievita does an long inhale) 

Nievita, mock-whining: You're so meeeaaaan. 

Shannon, laughing: I'm not meeeaan!

Nievita, laughing: IIIIIII... don't know... I will--

Shannon: You-I think you're going to explode from excitement--

Nievita: --I- I'm already planning on taking the week off.

Shannon, gasping and laughing: Are you really?!?

Nievita, cackling: Yeaaaah! 

(both laugh)

Shannon: Oh my god, Nievita. (Nievita continues laughing) The entire week?!

(Shannon busts out laughing loudly)

Nievita: I mean, 'cause maybe like, Barnes and Nobles released some of the other books earlier than other places? But, I might be camping out at a Barnes and Noble? Ummm... (Shannon laughs again) If I can get it ahead of time; I've already pre-ordered... five copies... 

Shannon: Five copies? 

Nievita: Yes.

Shannon: It's gone up a copy from the last time you told me.

Nievita: Well, yes, because I ordered the... digital. (S: Uh-huh) I pre-ordered the audiobook. (S: Okay) I ordered signed and doodled copies for you- (S: Awww!) -for me,  and as a giveaway.

Shannon: Aaaaahhhh, okay.

Nievita: So I've already bought five copies (Shannon laughs) but if I can get my hands on another copy before the book actually (Shannon laughs again) hits release, I will.

(Shannon sighs)

Nievita, sighing: I don't know how I'm gonna survive. 

Nievita: All right! Do you have an MVC?

Shannon: It's really hard to pick an MVC..?

Nievita: Yeah, 'cause we don't really know much about the characters...

Shannon: --right--

Nievita: --yeah--

Shannon: --I mean, I would have to say like, Adam or Ronan, but that's just because they're the characters that I know? 

Nievita: Right. My MVC is Declan..? 

Shannon, laughing: Your MVC is always Declan.

(Nievita laughs uproariously)

Nievita: I knoooooow, but like, he... snaps, and he's doing something awful (Shannon laughs) and he won't tell anyone about it, and it's gonna be awesome (Shannon continues laughing) whenever we find out that thing iiiiissss... (excitedly) it's gonna be sooo coooool! 

(Both laugh, then sigh) 

Nievita: All right. **MAGGIEWATCH**

(both make beeping noises like a telegram message)

Shannon: All right, what's the Maggiewatch?

Nievita: Maggie retweeted this from @MorganBeem Jun 22: They said, Really excited to finally be able to talk about my secret project!!! @mstiefvater and I are working on a brand new Swamp Thing YA graphic novel--

Shannon: --awesome!

Nievita: --with @DCComics! Maggie is absolutely killing it with the script and I can't wait to show you guys more down the line :)

Shannon: Nice!

Nievita: So Maggie has finally announced the comic book that she's been working on and that we've been talking about is happening, (Shannon laughs) and it is something completely out of left field. Like, the story of a YA adaption of Swamp Thing? (laughs) Like..? 

Shannon: Swamp Thing can be really good, and I could see her actually doing--

Nievita, emphatic: --nonono--

Shannon: --like, a good job with this.

Nievita: It's gooood, and I want to say that the only real exposure that I have a Swamp Thing is through Hellblazer, so it's from Constantine 'cause Constantine was originally (S: Okay) a character in Swamp Thing so (S: Mm-hmm) that's like, the way I'm coming from it? That is not a YA story (both laugh) but I don't have any other exposure to Swamp Thing. (S: M-kay) But it kind of just blows my mind, anyway. But it does explain the fact that she's had some cheeky conversations with some comics pros on her Twitter. (laughs)

Shannon: Mm-hmm, right... 

Nievita: All right, and then a supporter shout-out or multiple--

Shannon: --yaaaaaayy--

Nievita: --supporter shoutouts. It's basically a thank you to everyone who sent us questions, comments, or passed on our posts so that other people might see it so they could send us questions and comments. So thank you guys.

Shannon: Absolutely. We love our listeners!!!

Nievita, affectionately: We do. We really really really do! And then, just a last wrap up: please continue being patient with us and our posting schedule as we said at the beginning. I think it's probably too late to be able to build a buffer for the last few episodes of Season 2-- 

Shannon: -- 'cause I think there's only what like, two, three left? 

Nievita: Yeah. But we want to charge into Season 3 of Blue Lily, Lily Blue (Shannon in the background overlapping: Yaaaaaayy!!) with renewed vigor. (Nievita starts laughing) I know Shannon's really looking forward (Shannon starts laughing) to it. So, we might be a little erratic until the end, but thank you for sticking with us. (S: Right) We do love it, thank you so much--

Shannon, overlapping: --yep, and then once we get things ready and rolling for--

Nievita, overlapping: --that season break--

Shannon: --yeah--

Nievita: --will help a lot, yeah--

Shannon, overlapping: Hopefully it won't be a long season break, but--

Nievita, laughing: --yeah, not like the last one... I mean, that... that was part of the problem was that--

Shannon: --yeah, we so much happen--

Nievita: --we weren't able to pre-game the season like we would have normally so we weren't able to maintain a buffer because we had the laptop go down, we weren't able to record. (S: Right) We had that very long season break, we don't want that to happen again; so, it's just kind of been a game of catch-up this whole time (S: Yeah) and... you know, thank you for just sticking with us (S: Exactly) because we're doing this for you and thank you so much.

Shannon: Yeah, thanks guys! All right. So, with that let's wrap up.

Nievita: Whoohoo!

Shannon: Whoohoo!

Nievita: Thank you for being here. 

Shannon: Yes! Thanks for joining us today. Because this was a surprise and unannounced episode, our next episode is still gonna be Episode 27, which will cover chapters 44 through 49 of The Dream Thieves, with a discussion on some stereotypes and tropes and characterization represented by Kavinsky.

Nievita: Mm-hmm. Please, follow us online for announcements of what chapters we will be covering next, and please send us your thoughts because we couldn't have done this particular episode without you guys!

Shannon: Exactly

Nievita: We love having your contributions to the conversation, we love questions, theories, fancasts... whatever you want to send our way. 

Shannon: And you can find us practically everywhere on social media at "ravingirls": R-A-V-I-N-G-I-R-L-S; on Twitter @ravingirls, on Tumblr at ravingirls.tumblr.com, Facebook at facebook.com/ravingirls, and you can reach us directly at ravingirls@gmail.com. And now, brand-new, you can find us on Patreon or ko-fi at ravingirls!

Nievita: Yes, and you can reach me at substanceparty.tumblr.com, or at gmail at substance party with all of the A's taken out S-U-B-S-T-N-C-E-P-R-T-Y at gmailcom. If we have referenced a post or an article in the podcast, we will do our best to include source links to those in the show notes. 

(OUTRO Music: violins begin to fade in as Nievita continues talking)

Nievita: The Raven Cycle, Call Down The Hawk, The Dreamer Trilogy, and all affiliated properties are copyright Maggie Stiefvater and Scholastic Incorporated. 

Shannon: We hope you've enjoyed today's special episode, so until next time...

(Chanting and drums begin in the music) 

Both: WHOOP, WHOOP, RAVIN' GIRLS! 

(Nievita laughs joyfully) 

Nievita, speaking affectionately to Shannon: Awww... your silly face...

(OUTRO music crescendos for a few measures)

(OUTRO music begins to fade again)

Shannon: Mm-hmm... (Nievita laughs) 

Nievita: Yeah, I was like... you cannot... just like (laughs) getting through The Dream Thieves (laughs) you're gonna be like, (doing a mock-angry voice) "You cannot flake on me when we're done with the Dream Thieves. (both laugh) You owe me Blue Lily, Lily Blue!" 

(Both laugh)

Shannon, while Nievita is still laughing: And then like, you know, what's the point-like, why would you do three out of four books? (Shannon starts laughing)

Nievita, serious-sounding: I think we should.

Shannon, after a few beats: Nooooooo..! (Nievita starts laughing hysterically)

(both wheezing with laughter)

Nievita, still laughing breathlessly, barely getting the words out: I think we should just stop! 

Shannon, both continuing to laugh: Nooooooo...

(both laugh back and forth, clapping and snorting)

Nievita, cackling: Your face! Your face... (Shannon laughs) ...was so good.

Shannon, emphatically: Thank you!`

Nievita: Holy shit lady. 

(both make noises of recovering from laughter)

Shannon: It's like, nooooooooo..! No, I don't wanna leave it like, three-quarters done. (both start laughing again)

Nievita: I know, but we're gonna be doing this in 2022!

Shannon: So? 

Nievita, still laughing: Okay.

Shannon: It's like, I'm having fun! (claps)

Nievita: Okay, good.

Shannon: I hope you are! 

Nievita: I do! I do. 

(Music begins swelling again)

Nievita: Are we ready?

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

(OUTRO music drum flourish)

(Theme from CAPTAIN ZED AND THE DREAM PATROL fades in)

Capitain Zed: Captain Zed... Dream Patrol...

(Sounds of shock and surprise, then menacing laughter)

Chorus, singing: While the kids... are fast asleep...!

Captain Zed: Have a nice dream!

Chorus, singing: With Captain Zed!

(spring and bouncing noises)

Sheep: Baaaaaah!

(CAPTAIN ZED AND THE DREAM PATROL theme ending flourishes)